TRANSCRIPT OF YOUTUBE VIDEOS OF

THE SULPHUR SPRINGS POLICE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEWS WITH

REBECCA NELSON ON 9/4/10 AND 9/10/10

SULPHUR SPRINGS  POLICE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW WITH REBECCA NELSON -- 9/4/08

B = Detective Bo Fox

R = Rebecca Nelson

Note that all highlighted text in bold type is from analyst.  Any bold text within a statement is added by analyst for emphasis.

B          It is September the 4^th 2008, the time is 6:09 a.m.

R          Hi. It’s nice & warm in here.

B          (laugh)

R          Remind me on the way out I’ve got your driver, your ID. Okay?

R         Thank you.

B          Umm, we have can I get his wallet at all?

B          Uh

R          cuz, I mean I have credit cards in there too and

B          ok I will give you back anything that is in your name ok  I’m  probably going to turn his wallet over to his to his mom and dad. Ok

R          Ok Because the Discover card  we just got is actually my card but it’s in his name so I guess I can’t have that credit card back

B          ah like I say I’ll turn everything over to them and you know you know  I’m sure ya’ll can get all that stuff sorted out ok but ya’ll aren’t married yet

R          I know

B          So you know technically I am showing them as next of as next of kin

R          yeah

B          okay Rebecca I have already introduced you know me I am Detective Bo Fox. I’m with I work for the police department here as an investigator.  This is ranger John Vance he is with the Texas Department of Public Safety.  Umm

V        Rebecca what is your telephone number

R          903-440-xxxx

B          What was that again?

R          440-xxxx

B          and that was 903

R          mmhmm

V         Do you have your social security number off the top of your head?

R          I don’t off the top of my head.  I think…

B          Ok. ok What is your maiden name?

R          Nelson

B          Do you have any other previous last names?

R          Henderson

B.         Henderson?

R          I’m still legally married to my ex husband

B          ok alright I am going to talk to you a little bit about your relationship with Daniel ok.  How long have you known Daniel?

R          Probably about five months, six months

B          How did ya’ll meet?

R          Playing pool at the 127.

B          and how long had ya’ll been dating?

R          Since we met, since the day after we met we haven’t been apart

B.         Since you met? ok

B          Now ya’ll were engaged?

R          mmhmm

B          and when was the engagement?

R          about a month ago

***The relationship needs to be explored; having been together since the “day after we met” but only engaged one month prior to his death. 

B          there is all different kinds of relationships that people have ok?  And you know you know some people some people fight a lot and there is nothing wrong with that ok if that is the way the whole relationship is. Other people never have arguments with their

R.         We never have arguments.

Note that “never” should not be interpreted as “no”.  The interviewer caught that she is likely lying as to have been together since the day after they met and never argued is not credible. Therefore, the need to cover arguments (and fighting) is sensitive to R. and should be explored. They likely have fought intensely and related to this interview, since the interview is the venue in which she feels the need to lie.

B          with their spouse or their fiancés or whatever.  How would you describe your relationship with…

R          We never argued

Note that she does not answer his request to describe their relationship.  Repetition shows sensitivity; and any word or topic that is repeated should be noted as sensitive.

B          Never?  Everything was always pretty much good

R          Everything was hunky dory (laugh)

The laughing could be nervous laughing, so the interviewer should note what topics cause her to laugh.  Here, it is the incredible statement that they never “argued” that has caused her to laugh.

B          ok now do you work?

R          I work for my parents still

B          What do you do for them?

R          Data entry secretary.

B          Do you make a salary?

R          I make an hourly wage

B          Hourly wage…what about him?

R          umn he just recently quit Hydro Aluminum in Commerce.

B          Why did he quit?

R          He was tired of working nights all the time

B          Now did ya’ll rent that house there on Karol Lane?

R          He owns it

B          He owns it? Did he make payments on it?

R          mmhmm

B          What is what is the house what is the payments on that house?

R          $600 a month.

B          $600 a month? Now so ya’ll was living

R.         altogether with the taxes and everything else and insurance was like $800?

B.          so ya’ll were living off on what you make?

R          No we have been living off his 401K

Note that she was asked if they lived off what she made, but she responded that they lived off his 401K.  The interviewer should have explored what she did with “her” money; noting the demarcation.

B          Ok so off his retirement basically.  Where was that 401K from? Do you know? 

R          Hydro…Hydro Aluminum.

B          So he worked out there a while?

R          Six years six and a half years something like that.

B          What was how did he feel about all this?  About not working?

Compound questions should be avoided since they allow the subject to pick and choose which question they wish to answer.  What is he comfortable with:  not working?  Using up his 401K?

R          Uh…he was fine with it.  He said that he wanted to take a couple weeks off and then he was going to go look for a job.  Actually my mother was gonna my uncle is a top secret big wig guy for L-3 ? and my mother was going to give my uncle his resume and try to get him on at L-3?.

B          So you wouldn’t say he was depressed?

R          He never seemed really depressed. I noticed on the way home from East Fork tonight he didn’t say a word all the way home.

Note that she does not say “he wasn’t depressed”, she uses “never” which should not be taken as a “no” answer and should be flagged for sensitivity; but also “seemed” and “really” qualify depression. It is likely that depression was an issue with him.

B          Was he pretty he…how would you describe his his personality was he an even kill person or was he a roller coaster type person?

R          No he wasn’t a roller coaster he was just even he was just pretty moderate at all times.

The order of her answer:  not rollercoaster, just even, and just pretty moderate “at all times” shows the increase of sensitivity.  This addition “at all times” is not necessary for the sentence, therefore, it is important. It is likely that he had depressive states, which may have triggered drinking.  Was he treated for depression?  Medication? The subject of his mental health is sensitive to R and should be explored.

B          So what is ya’lls financial situation ? Now do ya’ll have separate accounts separate checking’s?

Note another compound question.

R          No. no.

B          So ya’ll are all together?

R          Yea, I use his checking account and everything.

R does not have her own account, but uses his checking account “and everything”.  We then would ask what else she uses of his besides his checking account. 

B          So you put your paycheck into his checking account how would you describe your financial situation here in the past since he quit his job?

R          It’s been fine.

B          Ok.  Had any problems paying bills?

R          Having a 25K check he put it in the bank and that’s what we have been living on. He had a couple loans at the bank and he paid those off.  Umm her owed his ex father in law like three grand, he borrowed that waiting on his check to come in it took like 30 days, he gave that back to him and put the rest of it in the bank.

  Note that she did not answer his question; therefore, bill problems is an issue. It is likely that they argued frequently (and increasingly ‘since the day after we met”) over bills and he may have been experiencing depression over these fights as well as not working and watching the money dwindle rapidly. This is why the question of her pay is important.

B          Ok. Uh,  I guess where I want to sort of go back. ..to…I guess I want to start  basically… ya’ll woke up this morning I guess did ya’ll wake up together?

R          mmhmm

B          What time do you think you woke up?

R          Around one o’clock in the afternoon.

B          One o’clock in the afternoon?

R          We stayed up watching movies cuddling on the couch all night last night.

This is an indication of tension.  R feels the need to include “cuddling” into a relationship that “never” argued.  This was likely a rough night.

B          What time did you go to sleep last night?

R          Probably about two or three.

B          Did ya’ll get along last night?

R          mmhmm

B          How was he last night?

R          He was fine.

B          Good mood?

The interviewer senses, here, the tension, which is why he is following up with particular questions. 

R          mmhmm

B          Ya’ll woke up around one.  What did ya’ll do when you got up?

R          I got up and got in the shower I went by my mother’s office and did some work over there for about an hour and a half to two hours I had some movies that I needed to take back to family video so I called him and asked him if he wanted to run to the video store with me and he said yes and came by and picked me up.

Note that this inclusion of “shower” (personal hygiene) is an indication of a bad relationship.  Everyone gets up and takes a shower, but few feel the need to report to the police that they did. Water, in various means, is a linguistic indicator that unwanted sexual activity likely took place. It is associated with sexual activity and she is “washing him off her”.  I would want to know if she was having an affair, or cheating on him in any way. This is an indicator that something was terribly wrong in their relationship; possibly sexual dysfunction or unfaithfulness on her part. Drug use should be explored via drug test; toxicology.

B          What time was that?

R          Lets see I clocked in at mother’s at 1:30 and I clocked out at three, about shortly after three cause she just lives right down the road from us.   **Picked him up and we went and dropped the movies off and he asked me if I wanted to go get something to eat and we went over to that new Mexican restaurant and we were laughing and cutting up and he was in a wonderful mood.

Note deception.  First, the symbol ** is added because there is a missing pronoun, which means that at this point, the subject is removing herself from the statement and it suggests unpleasantness in the car. Her description of
“laughing, cutting up, and in a wonderful mood” shows a strong increase in sensitivity.  Here is how:

If someone says, “I am happy” it is straight forward. If they add in an additional word and say, “I am very happy” we know that being “happy” is sensitive to the subject.  It may be that the subject was previously unhappy, or that the subject never expected such happiness. But, if the subject said, “I am very, very happy” we would see it qualified twice, and begin to wonder.  Yet, if the subject qualified it three times and said, “I am very very, very happy” you might say, “who are you trying to convince, you or me?”

This is an indicator of deception from the subject. This was not a good car ride or dinner but was stressful.

B          You went to the new Mexican food restaurant.  About what time was that?

R          About 3:30 or so, no, it was 3 it was exactly 3:15 when we even got seated because we had just missed the lunch special, and I remember looking at my watch.

B          No problems, nothing out of the ordinary?

R          Nothing out of the ordinary.

Reflection of words makes lying less stressful.  I would need to ask about what ordinary looks like. This is an indicator that something out of the ordinary took place.

B          Just ya’ll two at this point? Ok

R          mmhmm

B          What did you do after the Mexican food?

R          Umm. We went to Goodwill and went shopping …there.

Spending money. Note the theme.

B          Ya think that’s about four or what?

R          No.  Well we got there it was about 4:30 4:45 or so we got there and left there around left there around probably about close to six I guess a quarter to six I guess or something like that and we left there and we went by a friend’s house to see if they were home and they weren’t the car wasn’t there so he asked if I wanted to go get a beer and I said sure so we went over to the lounge for a little bit.

“left” indicates that something took place there and is withheld. Why?

Because when “left” is used as a connecting verb, it shows withheld information.  Here is how:

“I was in the living room and then went to the dining room” is straight forward.

But if someone said, “I was in the living room, and left, and went to the dining room”.  “left” is unnecessary because one cannot go from one area to another without first “leaving”.  This means it is sensitive.

70% of the sensitivity is due to time constraints, rushing, traffic, etc.

30% is deliberately withheld information that is stressful.  Given the nature of what took place, this is a critical area in which she is withholding information that is directly linked to the shooting.

B          What time do you think that was?

R          I think it was close to six cause happy hour was over at seven so.

Note that there would have been drinking in this unpleasant night.

B          So a little bit a little bit after six or right at six?

R          Around there give or take a few.

The subject is uncomfortable being pinned down to a time. The interviewer senses it and properly presses her. This means that there may have been a fight there that others were witnesses to.  It is sensitive to R and she does not want to give specifics.  It is clear that she is attempting to portray it in the best of terms, which draws our attention.

B          What lounge did you go to?

R          Texas lounge well it used to be Bright Star. Texas lounge.

B          And ya’ll drank some beer?

R          Yea we had a couple of beers played some pool.  Nina the old bartender over there was getting irate with everybody at the bar.  God she was so drunk and umm she started in on Maria my roommate and Nina and I have known each other for like 5 to 6 years and never had problems. 

Here is some of the trouble that took place. “couple” of beers is a phrase used to minimize the drinking. Note that “Nina” should be spoken to, as she is mentioned first. The order in which individuals are mentioned is significant, as they enter the subject’s mind and subsequently, the vocabulary. That Nina was getting “irate” (note soft language) with “everybody”, which seeks to portray the atmosphere as everyone’s fault rather than those responsible. That she said she “never” had problems with Nina indicate that should Nina be interviewed, she will likely be able to identify some of the times in which they did have “problems”. 

I just said hey Nina you know just cool it and go back and sit down and you know it was no big deal and Nina

Note that when “sit, stand, stood, sat, etc” enter a statement, it is an increase in tension.  “My boss told me to be here at 9” is not as tense as “My boss stood up and told me to be here at 9”.  The “sit, stand” indicates tension.

 around Maria and then walked around Daniel and then walked around me and sat right here next to me and I

note “sat right here” is strongly tense

thought everything was over and next thing I know

“next thing I knew” is called “Temporal Lacunae” where the subject has passed over time and is, at this point, due to the Temporal Lacunae and tension, deliberately withholding information about what happened right at this moment in the account. The interviewer would have needed to back her up and re-question her about what took place.

 she was grabbing me by the hair and pulling me out of the bar stool backwards

“was grabbing me” is an action that has begun, but we are not told of it completing, which means that there are aspects of the account that the subject is withholding. The patrons at the bar would likely have a different account of what took place.

 and by the time I got away from her Daniel had interlocked his arms around her to get her off of me and everything was fine after that and then they escorted Nina out and we played a couple games of pool after that and…

“everything was fine” is an attempt to minimize.  The tension existed.  The interviewer seems to know this and goes back to attempting to get the subject to give a time frame:

B          What time was it do you think was when they escorted Nina out?

R          I m not sure it was probably about 7:30 or so maybe 8:00 I don’t know it was probably about 7:30.

B          Now how many uh how much do you think Daniel had to drink at little at ? the lounge?

R          Well let’s see he had one bottle he had three mugs which are close they say are about 25 ounces apiece and then one more bottle.

B          Two bottles three mugs?

R          Yea I think so I know he had two bottles and at least three mugs

Note the weak, “think so and “at least”.  He likely had more. This was a night of temper, anger, and alcohol.  That she said everything was fine indicates that she was still in fight mode and likely took that atmosphere home with her.

B          How long did ya’ll stay there?

R          I think we left there well actually I can look at my phone to get a pretty good estimate because I had just texted Maria.

B          Who do you is your phone through Verizon?

R          uh huh

B          Ok

R          Alright she texted me at 6 uh 7:16 and said that she was here so we left there probably about 8:30 9:00 when we left close to 9:00 maybe and um..

B          Who left?

R          Me and Robin and Maria and Daniel.  Maria left first she went to Wal-mart to get a charger for her phone she went in her truck Robin followed me and Daniel back to the house so her truck would be there at the house when we got back from East Fork and um when we got to the house Maria was already there and ready to go and we loaded up in the Durango and we drove out to East Fork all four of us to go do some karaoke.

B          Back up just a little bit.  The beer Daniel was drinking.  Do you remember what kind of beer he was drinking?

R          He drinks bud light always.

She did not answer the question.  She only said what he likes to drink.  The drinking of alcohol is highly sensitive to her.  She likely had more to drink than reported, as did he.

B          Bud light. Ok. Were you drinking also?

R          Yea I had like two beers

Note that she does not say she had two beers, but “like” two beers.  This indicates that she had more to drink than she wishes to be known.

B          Ok.  So ya’ll go home and meet with Maria you say Robin followed you?

R          mmhmm

Part 2 9/4/08 Interview

R          I think we got there 9:45 10:00

B          You think you got to East Fork at around 9:45 10:00?

R          yea

V         What’s Robin’s last name?

R          I don’t know.

V         How well do you know her?

R          Umm, she is a friend of Maria’s, they have known each other a long time, umm I’ve talked to her every time I go to the bar to do karaoke and when I go to the pool tournament and I play in the poker tournament up there so…

B          Do you know where she works or anything?

R          She works at um Morning Star?

B          Morning Star?

R          That’s the one out

B          What bar does she drank at..does she

R          127 and the lounge she goes back and forth

B          127 club   Ok 

B          So you who drove out to East Fork?

R          I did.

B          Ok and Daniel was with you do you remember where he sat?

R          Yea he sat in the front seat.

B          The front seat?  And then Maria do you remember where Maria sat?

R          Maria sat behind..Robin sat behind Daniel and I think Maria sat behind me.

B          Ok what was Daniel like during this time?

R          He was fine. On the way out there

B          Normal?

R          Yeah he was normal.

B          Normal like joking around or normal like just calm sitting here

The interviewer correctly seeks  to learn what “normal” means to the subject. Note that Daniel was fine, but the additional words, “on the way out there” would indicate that there were times he was not “fine”. 

R          We were jamming out to the radio singing and just cutting up and laughing having a good ole time all of us were.

B          Ok.  Ya’ll get out to East Fork what do ya’ll do when ya’ll get to East Fork? What happens

R          We find a table and he ordered us a couple beers and got some quarters and we played some pool I signed up for karaoke.

B          He ordered himself beer too?

R          mmhmm

B          Ok.  You shot some pool?

R          mmhmm

B          You signed up for Karaoke?

R          mmhmm

B          Who shot pool?

R          Me and Daniel we shot couples with another couple there.

B          Where were Maria and Robin?

R          Sitting at the table.

B          Like how close to the table to the pool table?

This is a good question. Later, the atmosphere that R has attempted to portray can be discovered via other interviews with Maria and Robin. 

R          Well we were on the middle pool table.  There is another pool table there is a dance floor there is a dart board there is a video game there‘s a …(laughs)

B          So the table is across the bar?

R          Yea

B          Ok.  So how long do you think you played pool with Daniel?

R          Umm.  I only played two games and then I went back and sat down with the girls.  He stayed over there playing pool. 

B          Why did you stop playing?

R          I was tired of playing

She went back and “sat down with the girls”.  It is likely that there was tension here and that she and Daniel may have had words again.  Did she feel that Daniel was protective enough of her previously?  Did she feel that he was financially limiting what she could buy to drink, eat, or play pool? Did they argue over money? The tension is present and the interviewer must now enter into why the tension existed between R and Daniel.

B          Ok

R          I was starting to suck? (laughs)

Note the laughter.

B          Ok.  Who did he play with?

R          Umm. With the guy that was playing with us.

Note he played with “the” guy, not “a guy”, which may mean someone he or she knew.  This man should have been addressed and interviewed.

B          Daniel ok with you stopping not playing anymore?

R          mmhmm

B          Ok.   And Daniel kept playing?

R          mmhmm

B          How long do you think he played after you left?

R          He played until we left?

B          What did you do after you stopped playing?

R          I sang Karaoke, it was my turn to sing.

B          it was your turn to sing? And how long did ya’ll stay after you played karaoke.

R          Uh..We left at a quarter to midnight.

B          At any time during the night did ya’ll have did ya’ll fight have any kind of arguments?  Did he fight with anybody or have any kind of arguments beside what happened at the at the Texas Lounge? 

B.          No…? did he drink any how much do you think he had to drink at East Fork?

R          He had a lot he probably had four beers there.

The language tells us that they did fight the entire night up to this point.

B          But you wasn’t with him the whole time though?

R          Actually we were in eye shot I mean I saw him the whole time?

B          Ok.  Did you drink at East Fork also?

R          Yea I had two beers too.

B          Ok.  The rest of them drink too I guess?

R          Mmhmm

B          Ok.  Umm let’s talk about the ride home?  Anything unusual on the ride home?

R          I didn’t think anything of it?

B          You didn’t think anything of what?

R          Well he was just quiet. I just thought he was really drunk cause that’s how he gets when he is drunk.

B          How was he acting?

R          Umm he had his arm on his knee and he sat like this riding all the way home so I just thought maybe he wasn’t feeling good.  I asked him if he was okay.  He said no I’m drunk.  That was all he said on the way home.

Note inclusion of “sat” in her description.  We would not expect someone to do much else than “sit” in a car, therefore, tension is noted. However, when a subject says that something is “all they know” or “all someone said” it is an indication of more knowledge and words spoken.

B          Ok.  Did ya’ll go straight home?

R          mmhmm.  Went by the ATM and uh and went and saw a friend of mine over at the lounge

This is vital. “Went by” the ATM machine is missing the pronoun.  Who went “by” the ATM machine.  How does one go “by” an ATM machine?  Did she?  Did they?  She has not said that they did together. Next she said “saw a friend of mine over at the lounge”.  What friend?  Who saw friend?  She does not say that she saw a friend.

With TWO missing pronouns, we know that R wishes to remove herself from this part of her statement. This should have been a red flag to them.  We have the issue of money raised again, and now a “friend”.  Note that when she said “a friend of mine” she did not tell us the gender. This is significant.  This friend should become an issue of great importance to the interviewer since “a friend” indicates withholding of name, and “a friend” indicates that there are other friends.

Did this “friend” contribute to what happened to Daniel?

B          Which ATM which ATM did you go too?

R          Well we went to Alliance bank first.

B          Which one?

R          And it wouldn’t read the card.  The one right there on like where Bodacious is

B          Ok

R          And so then we just went around the corner to CNB

B          It didn’t work at Alliance you say ?

R.         Yea, the card it wouldn’t read the card.

B.          so you went to CNB next door?

R          Yea

B          What time do you think it was then?

R          I don’t know how long it took us to get back.

B          So you drove from East Fork to there? 

R          mmhmm

B          Uh…did the card work at East Fork?

R          Yea

B          Ok.  Did you get out money there? 

R          No I got money at the ATM

B          I mean I mean did your card work at CNB

R          Yea

B          Did you get money out there?

R          mmhmm

B          How much money did you get out?

R          Sixty.  That’s what he told me to get out.

How could “he” tell her to take out money when he did not say anything else?  This affirms the deception noted above when she said that that was all he said.

B          Did you get it out or did he get it out?

R          I did that’s what he told me to take out.

B          Ok.  Now it was a CNB debt credit debit card?

R          uh huh

Note that money is an important topic to the subject, as it is a repeated theme throughout the interviews.

B          Ok.  Uh where did you go when you left there?  Everybody was still with you at this point.

R          Uh huh went by the lounge talked to Tony for a few minutes on our way home and then we went straight home.

Who is Tony?  Tony is important enough for R to talk about, Tony should be important enough for the interviewer to focus upon. Is this the “friend” mentioned earlier?

B          How long did you stop how long did you talk to Tony?

R          Five or ten minutes.

B          Did everybody get out there?

R          uh-uh

B          Oh then how did you talk to …?

R          He came outside; the bar had already closed down.

B          Who is Tony?

He asks now.

R          He is a bartender there.  He was just a friend of ours.

Note that he “was” a friend of “ours”.  Is he no longer a friend?  Is he different than the “friend” that was near the ATM?

B          How was how was Daniel?

R          He seemed fine.

B          Did he still seem drunk?

R          Oh yea. (laughs)

Laughter noted

B          So after you talked to Tony, what was the conversation with Tony about?

R          About Nina.

B          Ok.  So it was pretty much between all three of ya’ll.  All three of ya’ll were talking to Tony?

R          No. I was.

B          You were?

Why wasn’t the topic of who talked to Tony explored at more length??

R          Yea and then we backed out and drove to the house and as soon as we pulled up Robin said “I’m going to go on home.” Maria asked her if she was okay to drive, she said “yes” she left she never went inside and um we got inside

Here I would want to ask if she went inside because it is sensitive to R.  A subject should tell us what happened and what was said.  When someone tells us what didn’t happen, or what wasn’t said, we are likely dealing with deception and we need to learn why the subject has a need to deceive. 

and we was checking out what was on TV all three of us.  And um she was like oh I love George Lopez I was like oh have you seen his new DVD of stand up that she had never seen and umm she said well I’m going to go change. I said okay.  And then I checked my sugar again and it was a little low so he asked me to take a glucose pill.  I took a glucose pill and umm I think he went back to the bathroom.  - came back to the living room and umm we were sitting on the couch and uh he asked me if I checked my sugar cause he couldn’t remember.

Note that alcohol impacts sugar levels and can cause severe mood swings.  Couple the insulin mood swings with alcohol and a bar fight and arguing all night about money and the possibility that she has been seeing someone else and there is a recipe for violence.  Note the tension of “sitting” (the word “stand up” in comedy is a type of comedy and is not flagged as tense)

Note: “came back to the living room” is missing pronoun.  She is removing herself from the statement as it is stressful.

 I told him again and then we were waiting for Maria to come back out to start the DVD and uh I was eating a sandwich

“told” rather than “said” is stronger:  argumentive

and uh we always check the bank account at night when we’ve been out so we’d know how much was in there

“always check” is not reporting what happened, but what is always done. This is a slight weakening. The tension is high and they have likely argued over spending, but here, we have her actually stating that someone was worried enough about the account that one or both wanted to check the account to see how much had gone out of it. This is an explosive moment that has been building. We see this in spite of her attempts at deception, because of the language she uses.

B          What do you know what Maria was doing when she?

R          She was changing.

B          She was changing?

R          She was talking to Jimbo on the phone in her bedroom and she was changing her clothes.

Maria’s statement is vital. The subject wishes to portray Maria as not only not present, but also changing AND talking on the phone: in other words:  distracted and unable to give a reliable account of what happened; making what Maria has to say doubly important to this investigation.

B          Ok

R          And umm..

B          You was checking your bank statement on line?

R          Yea.

B          You do that every night?

R          Every night and every morning we do that every night and every morning.

The repetition shows sensitivity.  This may not only be deceptive but show her tension over spending.

B          Who was checking it? You or him?

R          He was.

B          Ok.  Was he sitting on the couch right next to you?

R          Yea right next to me that was his spot on the couch where he always sits.

B          Now the computer was sitting right next to the kitchen?

R          Yea right there on that little table.

B          So he sits right there?

R          He sits right there.

B          Ok

Note that computers do not “sit”.  When an inanimate object is described as sitting or standing, the topic should be explored.  This language, however, came from the interviewer.  The other “sit” descriptions are from the subject and indicate tension, including what he “usually” or “normally” does.

When someone seeks to portray something as “normal”, it means that it is anything but normal.

R          And he was checking it and he said well come here I want to show you something.  I was like what?  You know I was already comfortable in my spot on the couch.

Note resistance

 Had my shoes kicked off and feet up on the couch you know.

When someone is lying they feel stressed, therefore, they drop pronouns to distance themselves from the statement.  We have seen it repeatedly and we see it here. This is a sensitive area to the subject and is the time that I would emphasize in a polygraph. 

 So I get up and I go over there and I look and he said we’ve got all our bills paid and we’re still like $42 in the positive.  I said well that looks pretty good if all our bills are paid you know and um he said well what am I supposed to do about what am I supposed to do Rebecca?  And I said well I don’t know let’s just worry about it tomorrow and you know cause he was drunk and uh he was like no Rebecca what are we gonna to do.  I said well I can get a better job. I know mother’s not paying me that much.  You know it’s no big deal let’s just worry about it tomorrow and he jumped up off the couch and said.

B          Now I want to I want a stop, I don’t want to go any further yet.  Now you said earlier that he got $25,000?

R          Right.

B          From his 401K?

R          mmhmm

B          And he deposited that into his bank account?

R          Not all of it.

B          Not all of it?  How much did he?

R          No cause he had two loans from the bank that he had to pay off.

B          Ok

R          He had a $3,000 loan from his ex-father in law.  He paid him off with him.  He gave his parents $800 and paid all the bills for a few months and you know we’d been living off that and it was starting to dreull ? down.

B          Right

R          So

B          So he deposited about $20,000?

R          No he had I think it was like, let’s see…I think he put like four grand in his account and he kept $9,000.

B          Cash?

Note that this is all information that she had not previously offered which shows why the subject of money has been so sensitive to her. The interviewer has seen that sensitivity and now is calling her to account for it. He sees that the money is not adding up and that 25K is down to $40.  This is central to the tension.

R          Yea, cause we had to give, like I said, his ex father in law $3000 of that. And you know

B          Okay so that adds up to $14,000?

R          Right and there was $5000 of that was taxes there was a loan for $5000 at the bank and there was another loan at the bank for something else.

All of this should have been verified. Where did the money go?  The subject of the interview needs to account for the spending, as well as the money from working for her mother.

B          Ok but out of all that money there was a little over $40 …$40 left…in the bank?

R          Right, yea right now.

B          Ok.  Was that ya’lls plan?

R          What?

B          Well when he when he quit his job when he got that 401K and ya’ll decided ya’ll was going to pay off bills and everything, was it in the plan that that was pretty much going to drain that 401K account to pay off all ya’lls bills.

R          mmhmm

B          Umm did that happen sooner than he anticipated?

R          I don’t know.

B          Did it happen sooner than you anticipated?  Were ya’ll making any other big purchases other than paying off bills or

R          No, not really.  Not that I know of.  I know that he was replacing this ring cause it was actually his youngest son’s first engagement ring for his girl when he gets older.  And um he had always (laughs) told me this ring wasn‘t big enough, 5 karats wasn’t big enough. And I said I don’t care, and I don’t know if he ever purchased one yet or not.  I just know there was a big lump of sum of money that was gone.  SO I assumed that’s what he did because some of the rings that he was looking at online…

B          There was a big lump sum of money that was gone?

R          Yea

This is central to the investigation.  Her language, all along, had shown sensitivity to money and here the investigator has found out that a large amount of money is missing. She has introduced “ring” and the size of Karats.  This is something that needs to be explored. 

B          Pretty much unaccounted for?

R          Right and I don’t that’s the only thing I can think of is.

B          How much money was unaccounted for?

R          Uh it was about $2,000.

B          About $2,000

R          mmhmm and the only thing I could think is…

B          When do you know when did you discover this money was unaccounted for?

R          oh well he kept the cash there at the house in a jar and he told me to go get a hundred dollar bill out of there for to put gas in the truck one day and umm I like to keep a count of how much money.

B          Where did he keep this jar?

R          It was a jar on the mantle there separating the kitchen and the living room that german stein.

B          Is there any money left in that mantle now?

R          uh-uh

B          Ok.  So the so the $2000 wasn’t unaccounted for out of your checking account but it was unaccounted for in cash.

Note that the interviewer is introducing language and giving HER the explanations when it is she who should be introducing language and giving account of the missing money  He is giving her information when he should be gathering the information from her.

R.          out of cash mmhmm

B.          Ok. And how much do you say he originally put about $9000 in that jar?

R          mmhmm

B          Ok.  Okay we can…so after you checked the bank account he wasn’t he didn’t seem pleased about that?

R          Right he ah and when he asked me that and I told him I could get a better job he jumped up off the couch and he said well I can show you what I’m going to do about it. 

B          Ok

R          And he stormed down the hallway and I didn’t think anything of it.  I went to go sit where he was at.

Here is another point of deception.  In reporting what happened, she now tells us what she didn’t think.  Whenever we are told what didn’t happen, what wasn’t said, or what wasn’t thought, we are dealing with deception.

B          Was ya’ll arguing at this point?

R          No. 

B.         Ok.

R.         We weren’t arguing at all.

The additional words, “at all” are used in an attempt to strengthen but in reality show the weakness:  they were arguing badly.

B          Ok

R          And I went and moved over to where he normally sits on the couch so I can close everything out and close it up and all that like I do every night. And I looked down the hallway and he had that shotgun to his chin. I freaked out went down the hallway and he had me pinned up against

Domestic violence triggered by money, alcohol, and likely the “friend” that she failed to clearly identify with information.

B          Ok.  Describe to me when you first saw him with the shotgun to his chin

PART 3 9/4/08

B          And I know it will open… this we are going to get to the tough part here ok? Anytime you need to you need to you know pause for a moment I understand that, ok.

R          I’m just trying to get through it.

B          I know, I know.  The first time you saw him with that shot gun as best you can describe to me everything about that.  How the shotgun was positioned everything you remember about it.

R          It was backwards.

B          Backwards?  Front facing him?

R          The trigger part was on the outside.

B          So the trigger guard would have been facing away from him?

R          Right.

B          Ok.  How which way which direction was he facing?

R          Umm after I got down the hall well he okay he. You talking about when I am coming down the hallway?

B          When you see him? 

R.          He’s facing me.

They are fighting at this point; both.

B.         Where what position is he in the hallway?  Is he in the hallway?

Note the compound question. 

R          Yea

B          Ok.  Is he in the hall or at the front of the hall?

R          He’s looking down the hallway…he’s at the end of the hall where those three doors are at he’s standing there facing towards the living room.

B          Is he looking at you?

R          mmhmm

B          What do you do when you see this?

R          Umm I jump up off the couch and go down the hallway and I said what are you doing?  And he said I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna fix this all right now.  And I said no and me being stupid, you know I grabbed the top of the gun.

This is deceptive.

When the subject tells us of what happened in a past tense event, it should be told chronologically. When it goes out of order, it is an indicator of deception.

The account of the gun is not reliable.  The subject is repeatedly deceptive, which means that the subject has reason to be deceptive.  She would not pass a polygraph.

B          What where where are you at when you grabbed the gun?

R          Well he had turned me around by then so my back’s against that middle door there the linen closet.

B          He turned you around?

R          mmhmm

B          So how did how did contact begin?

R          Umm god I don’t know like I said I grabbed the top of the gun?

Note that she previously said she was pinned.

B          Did he grab you did he grab you and turn you around?

R          No he turned the gun so I went with it cause I had a hold of the top part of it where the bullet comes out.

B          Ok. So you grabbed the top of the gun and he turned around?

R          My fingers were on top of it he turned around and I turned around with it my fingers on the top where the…

B          Ok.  So what position are you in now?

What was she going to say.  Interviewing 101:  DO NOT INTERRUPT THE SUBJECT.

Was here she was beginning to describe putting her fingers on what?  Because he interrupted her, we cannot answer for her. This was a poorly conducted interview.

R          My back is against that linen closet door and he is in front of me like right here. 

B          Ok. Ok now. Was the front of the gun or the back of the gun facing you? Can you remember?

R.          What do you mean the front of the gun?

R          The guard is still out.

B          The guard is facing you?

R          Yea where the trigger is.

B          Ok.  Is the gun still pointed up or toward his chin?

R          Yea under his chin.

B          Ok and you still have a hold of the barrel?

R.         (nods her head yes)

R          The look in his eye I saw I let go of the gun.  I just let go.

B          Did he say anything to make you let go? Or

R          No I just let go and I said to him baby I love you.  Don’t do this.  I have already buried a child I can’t bury you too. I said everybody loves you. Your family loves you. And I’m  I’d dropped to my knees by now.

Note that she is central to the story:  she can’t bear to bury him; not that he is primary. Note also the change in verb tense:  a past tense story should be a memory where past tense verbs are used.  She slips into present tense language meaning that this is not reliable.

 I yelled for Maria to come out there in the hallway and she saw what was going on and I said are you still on the phone with Jimbo and she said yes.

During such a critical struggle, why would she ask if Maria was still on the phone with Jimbo??

This should be questioned as it doesn’t fit the scenario. 

 And I said to tell him to get over here and help me I can’t do this. 

B          Did you did you hear what she said to Jimbo?

R          No I didn’t uh I get back to my feet and I am begging him to just put the gun down.  I said baby the gun is loaded you got it cocked just put just put the gun down.  Whatever the problem is we can fix it just put the gun down. 

A truthful report will be in the past tense because the subject is speaking from memory.  Verb tenses are something understood in children as young as 3. Our reliability is found in First Person singular, past tense. That is now what we find here.  She said, “I am begging…” which is present tense. She also uses the word ‘baby’ which would attempt to portray this as an endearing relationship.  When someone feels the need to portray a relationship, it is a sign that it isn’t good. For example, “I woke up, said good morning to my wife, and got dressed”.  Since we all say “good morning” to our spouses, it is not something we would include in our statement. That it enters into a statement shows a need by the subject to paint the best possible picture of the relationship, indicating that it is poor.

Most people, faced with an attempted “suicide” will not recall what name they used. 

B          Did you grab the gun again?

R          I didn’t grab the gun again because the look in his eye.  It’s like he was trying to he had finally tooken the gun out from under his chin but he still had it up and his finger was still on the trigger. 

When a subject tells us why something happened, it means the interviewer has come upon a sensitive topic. I don’t think she grabbed the gun here because she may have already had it in her possession.

This should be asked in a polygraph.

B          Which which which finger was on the trigger, which hand?

R          I don’t know.

B          Do you know if he is right or left handed?

R          He is right handed he is actually ambidextrous (__? primarily uses his right?___)

B          But you don’t remember which hand was on the trigger?

R          I don’t. Like I said the gun he it was like he moved it he’d moved it out from under his chin but it was still he still had his finger on the trigger

“like I said” is used as a means of self assurance; giving the subject a reference point to remember by.  It is often found in deceptive, persuasive statements.

B          Was it in front of him now?

R          No it was still backwards.

B          No but I mean it was still in front of him?

R          Yea  And I don’t know if he was going to set the gun down or what he was doing? He didn’t say a word.  He just bent over and shot He (cell phone rings) sorry he uh he hit the floor he just dropped.

Note passive language. Passive language is used when the subject wishes to conceal responsibility.  It is true that he hit the floor, and true that he was shot, but this wording is used to withhold information, and in this case:  the shooter.  This is another critical area which should have been explored.  Next, notice the unreliability of the verb tenses.  I have highlighted them. They are not reliable.

 I run down the hallway to the living room to get his phone and I dialed 911 I run down the entry way to unlock

Note that “run” is present tense.  Is the subject so uneducated that she doesn’t know the difference?  No.  Now notice “I dialed 911” which is reliable.  She used the correct verb tense. It is likely that she did not run down the hall but was fabricating this (present tense) during the interview.  The interviewer should have caught the use of present tense language.

the front door and swing the door open so the paramedics and the cops could just come on in.  Maria called

note that called is past tense and reliable.  Phone records will likely show that Maria used the phone

Jimbo back and said where you at he just shot himself and now this time the puddle of blood  got bigger and I worked in the ER I worked in the ER in labor and delivery for 6 years at ______?________ Regional.  The only thing I knew to do I got down there on my knees and I held him and picked his brain up and put pressure on his head with my right hand and he started gasping for air like he was snoring.  So I cocked his head cause he had blood coming out of his mouth.

Note that the subject likely did these things and likely did so in anger, especially the pressure.  “Cocked” his head is strong language. She didn’t tilt it, or turn it, she “cocked” it.  What is the language commonly associated with the word “cocked” that would be in the subject’s mind?  The weapon.

 I cocked his head and he looked at me with his left eye (*NOTE: she is taking Daniel’s phone out of her “other” pocket and looks down at it AT THIS MOMENT) and umm the lady the dispatcher said to stay on the phone with her and I did.  I told her where I was at and what had happened.

Note the reliability of past tense language here.  Education is not part of the analysis.  She knows what past events are like and can describe things in the past tense.  When she described things in the present tense, it is an indication that she was making it up as she went along DURING this interview.

 I tried to find a pulse cause he was still gasping for air but I couldn’t feel his heart beat.

“tried” in past tense means to attempt but fail. She made sure he had no heart beat.

 So I looked for his pulse in his neck.  I couldn’t find one.  And then the next thing I know I am getting a gun

Note deception:  she is withholding information here (temporal lacunae “next thing I know” and now the present tense language of “I am getting a gun” which attempts to change the topic.  The cop may have entered with a gun pulled as he is entering a scene of a homicide, but she would like it to be portrayed as she under threat.  This may be a verbal indicator that she recognizes that it is she who should have been under arrest.  Something took place during the time period of “next thing I know” which she does not want known. It may be that during this time period she “cocked” and put pressure on him to ensure he would not survive.

pulled on me by a cop. (laughs) Which I understand why.

An innocent person NEVER understands why.  Whenever a person can understand why a cop pulled a gun, or why he is being blamed, or why some thing I am guilty…it is always a red flag for deception.  Innocent people do not own blame and will not accept it. Here, she accepts why she may have a gun pulled on her.  This is an indication of guilt and needs to be explored.

B          Right. You was still inside at that point

R          I am still holding Daniel and uh they asked me to step out of the house and that was the last time I saw Daniel.

B          When uh when Daniel bent over did he bend down over the gun?

R          Yea

B          Umm..did Daniel have any kind of life insurance or anything that you know about? 

R          I have no idea.

When someone says “I have no idea” it must never be accepted as an answer.  People have ideas about most everything. She certainly had lots of knowledge of his money.  She knows about life insurance.

B          But he had a 401K through the aluminum Hydro Aluminum.  Ok. And that’s in Commerce?

R          mmhmm

B          Has he ever talked about hurting himself suicide anything since you have known him?

R          When we first got together, he had told me that if I hadn’t came into his life when I did that he wouldn’t be around now. 

B          Did he elaborate on that?

R          No

Note that “told” is stronger than “said”.  “Said” would be expected in something touching and endearing. This is an indication that his life was talked about between them, including the end of his life…likely in arguments.  Killers do talk about killing before it takes place, just as others do in joking. It is difficult to discern.  The Interviewer shows a sense of understanding this topic.  It should have been explored further.

B          Did you ever ask him what he meant by that?

R          Well I mean he said he had given up on life until we met.

But he never elaborated on it?

B          Did he say why he had given up what had happened in his life to give up on

R          He just caught his ex wife cheating on him with a 19 year old kid and they just got divorced it was finalized last week.

B          So his divorce with his ex wife was finalized last week?  What was her name?

R          Amber I have her phone number if you need it.

Note the offer of assistance. 

B          Yea

R          903-xxx-xxxx.  And do you need his two youngest his youngest sons mother’s? Their from his second wife, he’s been married three.

B          What is his second wife’s name?

R          Amy

B.          Do you know her last name?

R.          Underwood.  Her number oh goodness he’s got fifteen numbers in his phone let me look under mine I‘ve only got one number for her.  903-xxx-3xxx.

B          3xxx

R          mmhmm

B          Ok.  Who is the other one?  You said he had three wives. 

R          uhm Michelle and him haven’t spoke in years.  Michelle is his first wife, Michelle Price.  I don’t

B          So you don’t have her number?

R          huh uh

B          So they haven’t spoke in years?

R          huh uh

B          How often does he speak to Amy?

R          We speak to her all the time.  Her and I get along and.

B          And they have a kid together

R          mmhmm

B          How old is the kid?

R          He just turned 6.

B          Ok.  Does he have a kid with Amber?

R          No he has an older son that’s 11 actually he just turned 12 with a girl name Jennifer. Oh what’s her last name?  You know Mike Swindell?

B          uh huh

R          It’s his grandson.

B          Ok.  Jennifer Swindell‘s.

R          Yea.  I don’t know if that is her last name or not.  I contacted Mike earlier. 

B          You told him what happened?  Rebecca I think you know I we have your now your number is 440-xxxx  right?  Umm should we need to contact you again we’ll call you, ok?  Umm you know I don’t know at this point if we’ll need to talk to you again or not.  I appreciate you coming; I know you had to wait a long time up here but.

R.         I just want to get home and take a shower.

That she told him that she wanted to shower is note worthy.  Not many people feel comfortable enough telling a policeman she needs a shower. Because it entered into her language it is significant. I would explore if the subject was involved with another party romantically, and I would explore the guilt for need to wash off guilt.

B.          I want you to know my sympathy my condolences are with you ok.  There is really nothing I can tell you that is going to make you feel better.  Ok. Uh I just tell you that you say you have faith, just continue to have faith ok we don’t know why things happen but you know they happen but they happen for a reason.

The interviewer can disarm by being polite; here it is that he is probably a good man, himself.  It is difficult to pick up “on the fly” the slipping into present tense language; which is why training and practice is vital.  He did show instincts where she aroused his suspicion.

R.        My brother kept telling me that it wasn’t in the power of God. ?

B.        We can’t see that we can’t see the big picture down here. OK.  But God can see the big picture; you know it is not up to us to explain. You know. Ok?

SULPHUR SPRINGS POLICE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW WITH REBECCA NELSON -- 9/10/08

B          It’s September 10^th and its 1:49 pm.  Um…of course you already know me we talked a couple times on a couple different occasions ok?  I want to talk a little bit more to you about Daniel Underwood and what happened the other night ok?  Umm I just have a few questions some questions that have surfaced I guess since I talked to you that morning. Ok? 

R          Okay

B          Umm..now how long, you were living at that residence right, 331?

R          mmhmm

B          Okay how long had you been living there with Daniel?

R          About 3 months

B          About 3 months? Ok and ya’ll refresh my memory, how long had you been dating?

R          4 months

B          4 months, ok.  So you moved in with him pretty much a month after you started dating?  And ya’ll were engaged right?

R          mmhmm

B          Were ya’ll having any kind of problems or anything?

R          huh uh we didn’t fight about anything

B          Ok well cause you know there has been stuff going around town

R          I know that it’s hard for me to find (look for) a job right now

B          Were you planning on leaving him?

R          No I wasn’t, cause I heard that rumor too.

B          Do you know why anybody would be saying that right now?

R          I have no idea

B          Ok but you were not planning on leaving him (yall weren't having any problems?)

R          No. We were planning a vacation this weekend cause my birthday is tomorrow we were going to Shreveport for the weekend.

B          Ok.

R          I mean we had already set a wedding date and you know we had plans set up

B          Ok. Umm I want to talk to you a little bit about the gun.  I am just going to sort of skip around here okay.  I got some different things I want to talk about.  This shot gun, where did that shotgun come from, do you know?

R          I thought it come from his dad.  I thought his dad gave it to him that’s what he told me I thought.  But umm I have heard around town that some guy named Mike gave it to him. Or Brandon gave it to him.  I have heard three different stories.  So I don’t know

B          Had you seen the shot gun before?

R          Yes

B          When was the first time you saw it?

R          When I when I moved in cause he kept it behind his side of the bed loaded.

B          OK And ya’lls bedroom again that was the bedroom on the left.

R          Back to the left

The language suggests that there was likely some arguments about the gun.  It is difficult to imagine the gun being in a home where arguments and substance abuse are noted.

B          as you walk down the hall on the left?  Whose room was on the opposite.

R          Right opposite was his boy’s room.

B          Ok.  Umm so he kept that rifle behind his bed

R          Right behind his side of the bed

B          Right behind his side of the bed? Ok.  Did you ever know him to use the gun?

R          I never knew if he has ever used the gun?  I don’t know

B          You never went out shooting with it

R          No No I have carried it when we moved out to Cyprus Springs Lake.  See we we had decided that since he was getting a job in Lone Star we were going to move closer.  SO we rented a house on the lake in Cyprus Springs. 

Note that she “carried” the gun, and “we, we” had decided (note plural)  rather than “I decided” indicates argument which had to eventually be resolved. She knows how to handle the weapon.

B          When was this?

R          I’ve got the lease agreement and everything

Additional, unnecessary words are doubly important to the investigator. We would want to explore “and everything” in terms of household forms, bills, ect:  looking for life insurance.

B          Had ya’ll already moved out there.

R          We moved out there, we moved half of our stuff out there and we stayed one night and we both said this isn’t right this doesn’t feel right so we moved back.

“we” is repetitive and sensitive.  It is likely that she made decisions that he didn’t like and she needs to portray it as joint decisions.  The more she repeats it, the more sensitive it is and sheds light into their arguing in the home.

B          Well about how long ago was that.

R          About a month maybe 3 weeks

B          About a month..ok

R          But I carried the gun from the truck to the house at Cyprus Springs

B          Now had ya’ll completely moved everything back from there

R          Yea we moved everything back from there

B          Ok Umm Had you ever shot fired that gun?

The investigator’s instinct has kicked in regarding her and the gun.  He knows. Note her reduction “only” is highlighted by me.

R          Huh uh…I have only fired one gun in my life and that was a 380 years ago

B          Ok.  Well I think you mentioned back when I talked with you that morning that the gun would come apart whenever it was shot.

R          That’s what he told me

B          That’s what he…When did he tell you that?

R          I don’t like guns so I told him I I didn't like it being loaded. So that’s when so that's when we started talking about it.  He said that if you ever have to use it cause he was working nights at Hydro at the time

Again, note “so, since, because, therefore, etc” as explanations “why”  which show sensitivity.

B          Yea

R          He said that if you ever have to use it it’s a 50/50 chance that for it to go off because something was broken on it or something  and it pops open or something for the shell to eject.  He said the shell wouldn’t always eject or something I don’t know, I know anything about guns.

She has now raised the issue of accidental discharge.  This should be noted and explored.

B          And where was when was that ya’ll talked about that you think?

R          I don’t know a couple months ago. 

B          OK. Umm…now where did he keep ammunition for it?

R          Umm they was in the Durango.  We cleaned we had the Durango detailed and he put em in the garage and he was looking for em I guess about when we moved he was looking for em so he could move em with his gun and we couldn’t find em anywhere.  So uh they're misplaced in the garage somewhere I guess? 

Always note repetition because a word is repeated when it plays over and over in a subject’s mind. This may indicate that she had a struggle finding the ammo.

B          Did he always keep the bullet in it a shell in it

R          mmhmm

B          Uh…now you say ya’ll shared that checking account? 

He has asked this before and is wise to ask again.

R          Well I wasn’t on it but he gave me his checkbook and his credit card and for me to use because I deposited my checks into that account. 

B          Ok..and where were your checks from.

R          My moms office

B          And what’s the name of that office?

R          Billing Management Services

B          Billing Management Services?

R          mmhmm

B          So you deposited Billing Management Services checks into that account.

R          mmhmm and my mother’s personal checks she gave me which would be under Memory Nelson.

B          What Nelson?

R          Memory m-e-m-o-r-y

B          OK. So you signed some of his checks?

R          mmhmm

B          Did you sign his name or your name?

R          D. Underwood, that’s what he told me to write

Note that she does not answer the question, which is in the form of “yes or no” indicating sensitivity.  She forged his signature.

B          D. Underwood

R          mmhmm

B          And you had his permission to do this?

R          Yes I did

B          Would anybody else know this?

R          My mother

B          Your mother.  Would anybody else know this?

R          Uhh….I don’t know I never talk about our finances with anybody so except for my mother.

B          Uhh I want to go back to the time right after the shooting, ok.  You called his mother at some point in time.  Do you remember that

R          After I got off the phone with 911.  I called his parents immediately

The timing is sensitive.  Why the need to say “immediately”?  He was bleeding on the ground and we would not think that she would leisurely wait around, yet she gives us this additional word for a reason.  We are now looking for more persuasion.

B          And whose phone did you use to do that with?

R          His phone

Bq        And you used his phone also to call 911?

R          Yeah because it was the closest phone too me

B          Umm now I believe you told me that night that I have to sort of refresh myself with stuff.  When the gun shot went off actually did you actually did you actually see him when the gun shot went off?

R          mm hmm He was 6 inches from my face

B          He was 6 inches from your face

R          Like I said I've got a bruise still here from the butt of the gun

B          Right, Ummm

R          and we were face to face

Note the description that she chose to use.  This indicates challenge, struggle and stand off.  There is little more she can say that should convince the interviewer that her story of her attempting to talk him out of suicide is not accurate. This is the phrase of confrontation; not pleading. 

B          Were you holding his hand at that time. 

R          No

B          Ok.  Well I don't remember I didn’t remember you saying that but

R          No I had um I had dropped to my knee and ugh when I stood back up is when the gun is when he shot the gun is when I stood back up.

B          Ok.  Where is your bruise at again?

R          Right here.  It’s starting to itch now so hopefully its healing.

B          I have heard out there and like I say  this is something that I don’t recall but you know tell me if I am incorrect because I wasn’t there initially okay but was he holding any kind of divorce papers or anything?

R          No

B          Have you heard that?

R          I heard that story and I have heard I've heard everything around town.  Those divorce papers for him and Amber are folded up on the passenger side in the visor on the passenger side of the Durango.  And that’s there they have been since he got them. 

B          They are on the visor of the passenger side of the Durango.

R          They're up in the vis Yea

B          Are they still there?

R          I don’t know I don’t have the Durango.  They took the truck from me and everything so .  They were there when I handed over the truck.

It may be that “they” have something in evidence that is sensitive to this investigation.

B          Did you, now his cell phone you have given it too his parents, right?

R          mmhmm

B          And the computer also, is that right.

R          mmhmm.  I just wanted to get my stuff off of it

B          Did you erase stuff off of both of them?

R          I just erased my stuff

B          Off of what the computer?

R          The laptop, yea.

B          What about the phone?

R          I didn’t erase anything off the phone?

B          Did anybody you know of erase anything off the phone?

R          Yes

B          What?

R          Jason erased the numbers

Red flag:  must be explored.

B          Jason??

R          I don’t know his last name..Chaney’s husband.

B          Whose Chaney?

R          His best friend, I don’t know their last names.

B          Whose best friend

R          Daniel’s

B          Daniel’s best friend’s husband?

R          mmhmm

B          You don’t know their last names and their best friends?

R          I just met Chaney the other day, they always talk on the phone.

Every name that enters the interview must be explored. 

B          Where do they live?

R          Davis Street

B          Davis Street?

R          mmhmm

B          Where at, describe the house to me.

R          1011 Davis Street I believe ten eleven Davis Street

B          North or South Davis

R          That way

B          What do they drive?

R          A Black Camry

B          Why

R          Cause I asked him too.  I asked him to take my numbers out.  My friends numbers and my number.

Alert.

B          From what I understand just about everything was taken out?

R          Well if they are well and when you know you (this is studdering).  When I dropped it the battery came out.  He has had problems with that phone its erased numbers before.  I just erased I just had him erase my phone number.

B          I mean I can take batteries out of my phone

R          I know but his was messed up though.  Its done it before with us. but I just erased my phone number my parent’s phone number and

Note that all records of calls should be subpoenaed as significant.  The interviewer should know that something is wrong here

B          I don’t understand the purpose of doing that?

R          Because I knew she was going to start with me because of whats going they have to have somebody to blame. And I didn’t need her calling any of my friends you know just look at all the slander she is doing in town.  I mean I went to look for job yesterday cause now I have to get a job and nobody will even look at me for an interview.

B          Yea but when you erase stuff you are just giving her ammunition.

R          Well yea and I thought about that yesterday when she came when they met me a t my mom and dads house.

B          What all did you erase from the computer?

R          Just my my personal stuff.  I didn’t erase it.  I downloaded it on.  Well I guess I did erase it from the computer.  I downloaded my divorce papers that I had on there.  Umm and my file that I had transferred over from my moms computer to that one to that one.  It’s all on a disk.  That’s all I did.

B          Did anybody else erase anything?

R          No.  Nobody else touched the laptop

Others have assisted her.  They didn’t “touch” the laptop.  What did they touch? What did they erase?  What were they involved in? Who are “they”? and so on…

B          But none of his stuff was erased off of there.

R       Nuh uh

B          No banking stuff erased off of there.

R          No No No

Note the repetition. This means that sensitive information that is relevant to the shooting has been erased.  This gives the investigation some focus.

B          The only things that you erased from it is

R          My file

B          Your file?

R          mmhmm

B          And what does y our file consist of?

R          My daughters pictures, umm  divorce papers that were mine, and my resume.

B          Is there anything else, because I tell you honestly ok, I am going to have to be forced to forensically examine the computer.

R          Oh I know that, that’s fine

B          And even though it’s erased on that computer

R          Oh I its still there

B          I am going to pull it up

R          Oh I know

B          It may take me a month, two months to get the information back

R          Oh I  I know that's all I erased

Who else erased?

B          But it is all going to come back

R          that's all I erased I just put it on a on a on a CD-RW

B          Ok.  A lot of this stuff what I am being told is coming from you ok.  That you said he was holding the divorce papers is when this happened.

R          No I didn’t say that

B          That you said you was holding hands with him when this happened.

R          I grabbed his hand when he hit the floor.  But I never said anything about his divorce papers.

B          All I am telling you is what I have been hearing.

R          oh I thought you said you had heard that from me I thought you said I said that.

B          No No no no..the other thing that I have been told  is that you have said that you and I were having some sort of relation.

R          What!  I said that you we had some kinda case that you were ugh, helped tips on before. (lots of studdering going on)  That’s how I knew you.

B          Ok

R          I would never say, oh my god this shit

B          Cause that is not true

This appears to have derailed the interview.  There was finally some form of confrontation, even light, and he introduced this topic which displaced the flow of the interview.  This is regrettable.

R          That is definitely not true.  No I never said that and I never said that he was holding divorce papers. umm I know who said that.  Jason told Amber that which is Amber’s daughter’s uncle.

B          Jason, this is the same Jason?

R          Same Jason cause he told me he told her that.  And I said why did you tell her that? And I never got an answer out of him.  So I don’t know what the deal is there but I never said

B          This is the same Jason that you gave the cell phone to have it erased?

R          Yes yes and I never said anything about him holding the divorce papers.  I never said I was holding his hand when this happened.  I grabbed his hand when he hit the floor.

B          Is there anymore rumors out there that I can anticipate hearing?

R          Not that I know of.  I think that pretty much covers all the ones that I've heard.

B          I am going to tell you right now this business of changing anything, OK altering anything, is going to stop right here and now, ok?

R          Right right I don’t have anything of his

B          Well I understand that but you have already erased the dang stuff of the phone.  You have taken stuff off the computer.  There is no reason to do any of that Rebecca.

Is he interviewing or counseling?  How does he know that there wasn’t reason to erase?

R          Well I knew they were going to let me have anything off the computer that was mine.

B          I don’t care There is no reason to do any of that ok?  That doesn’t look anything but bad.  Anything but bad to do that. OK Now like I say I am going to have to take that stuff and I am going to have to have it examined

R       I'm fine

B       forensicaly  to see why in the heck you are erasing stuff off it, ok?

R          It’s just, I can give you the disk, I’ve got it at home.

B          Now what is your cell phone number.

R          440-xxxx

B          2xxx? Ok.  Umm and what company is that with?

R          Verizon

B          Verizon. 

R          His is with Sprint.

B          Yeah. And give me his one more time, I have it but

R          Umm…

B          that's alright

R       335-0900

B          I just don’t want anymore surprises in this investigation, ok? that's what I don’t like being blindsided by anybody.

R          I know neither do I but I didn’t think anything about it at the time.  And now I do understand.  I thought about it yesterday when mother and I were talking about it and Mother goes well Rebecca you shouldn’t have done that. And I realize that now. 

Note that in an interview, a person should tell us what happened, and not what didn’t happen. They can tell us what they thought, but not what they didn’t think.  When something is offered like this, in the negative, it is sensitive and needs further exploration.

B          When did you do that?

R          The day after we got all of it well when I left here.

B          When you left here that is what you did? 

R          mmhmm

B          Now did you also text somebody when you left here while you was waiting here.  Text them and tell about what happened?

R          Umm I can’t remember .  I think it was from Mike Woods from his phone.  Mike Woods is ugh an officer an officer in.

B          What did you text Mike Woods?

R          I just ugh I just told him about Daniel. Because they were friends.

Note that she answers the question, but then gives a reason.  This is sensitive.

B          They was friends?

R          mm hum

B           Ok. 

R          Now I

B          What I would ugh if you I would like to see whatever you got off the computer okay?  I am just asking you for consent to look at that ok? 

R          That’s fine.  I got the disk at the house.

B          Ok.  If you would bring that by to me, you know this evening or tomorrow sometime.  You know like I say if you have nothing to hide here you have nothing to worry about.

R          I don’t care

B          Ok? You know I gotta see this stuff that was taken off

R          I understand

B          Ok.  Ummm so that is all I have for right now.  Okay.  Umm

R          How do I go about getting my things? I know bio hazard is suppose to be there tomorrow

B          Every party is involved okay that brings up one more question I want to ask you.  Are you married right now?

R          Yea

B          You are married right now? 

R          mmhmm

B          But you were engaged.

R          Yeah we were working on my divorce.

B          Who are you married to right now?

R          Lee Cory Henderson out of  Fort Worth uh Weatherford.  We have been separated since ____________ ?

B          Lee Cory Henderson?

R          Yes, he goes by Cory.

B          Do you have his phone number in your phone?

R          Yea I do it is 9 it's 817-596-xxxx

B          Jason do you have his phone number?

R          Lets see here, 903-348-xxxx

B          348-xxxx?

R          mmhmm

B          Ok as far as property OK I am not going to get in the middle of it. Ok whose property is what.

R          Well I just don't know how to go about doing it. Do I need to call my attorney or?

B          Go see go see the Justice of the Peace

R          Justice of the Peace? OK

B          That is where all property disputes are settled ok.

R          Ok.

B          And it’s the same thing that I tell you or Daniels parents or anybody involved.

R          Well yea I just didn’t know what to do

B          I don’t know what property belongs to who and I am not going to get in the middle of it.

R          Right I mean like my clothes. (laughs) I mean my mom had to buy me new clothes and and stuff and because they won’t let me have anything.  And I understand till bio hazard gets there but they

B          Right right. Now there is no more there's no more bombshells that is going to hit me when you leave here right?

R          There shouldn’t be that’s all the rumors I have heard too.

B          Ok ok

R          If I hear any I will call you. 

B          You only have one husband right now. You're not mar...

R          No, I only have one husband I have only been married once.

B          just Mr. Henderson and that's it

R          That's right.

B          Ok